Sunday, November 28, 2010

Going with the Flow - the Rip-tide of Secularism

Written by Karima Hamdan

Now that The Independent has allowed itself to become a roost for its anti-Muslim harpies – Alibhai-Brown, Patterson, Hari and Burchill; The Guardian, with its left of centre views and its liberal leanings, seems a safer bet for the Muslim who wants to stay informed but keep his blood pressure within normal limits. Its main problem is of course that of most lefty papers: in its desire to be liberal and bohemian, it has become the haunt of a cadre of dysfunctional, disingenuous and, quite frankly, disgraceful Muslims.

Whether it is the usual schizophrenic Khalid Diab article which, on the one hand, complains about Muslim society’s crude stereotypes of western women whilst, on the other, propagates his own crude stereotypes of devout Muslim men; or the ex-Muslim science teacher Alom Shaha, who obviously hated Islam enough to leave it, but yet sees no irony in his haste to cash in on his ex-Muslim status; or the odious Safraz Mansoor, who bizarrely writes for "Muslim lifestyle" magazine Emel, despite penning article after article for The Guardian rejoicing in his non-adherence to even the most basic tenets of a Muslim lifestyle.

As is seen elsewhere in nature, the female of the species is often the more virulent and this seems to be true of The Guardian's Muslim journalists, in particular Riazat Butt. She initially presented The Guardian's Muslim podcast "Islamophonic" in 2007 and is now the paper's religious affairs correspondent. By 2009, she was ranked as the 26th most powerful Muslim woman in the UK according to the "Power List" produced by the Equality and Human Rights Commission but whether this is an indicator of piety, influence or bicep size is less obvious.

Butt's main stomping ground comes in the form of a weekly column called "Divine Dispatches", which purports to offer a round-up of all the religious news from around the globe. In reality, however, it does little more than snidely poke fun at religion for the largely secular Guardian readership, who must sit around sniggering at the stupidity of the devout. This year, her employers decided to send her to the Hajj, from which she would tweet her experiences and produce several articles along the way. The result is perhaps best summed up by one of our more vivacious ulama who said of the experience:

"My punishment this month? Reading Guardian 'journalist' Riazat Butt's Hajj Twitter feed aka punishment from Allah. It's been EXCRUCIATING!!"

I echo the pain he must be feeling. Despite being Muslim, Riazat Butt appeared to not let a chance go by to demonstrate an extreme religious irreverence. She appears to have spent the majority of her time on Hajj either making sly quips on Twitter (that descended into outright sneering in her articles) or complaining peevishly about the crowds, the heat and the sweat (one wonders if she has ever travelled on the London Underground during the summer). As the Hajj progressed, Butt sounded less like a Muslim pilgrim and more like a stereotypically ignorant American tourist, wandering through some breathtaking Renaissance-era piazza, oblivious to the wonders around him, and whingeing interminably about how there isn't a Starbucks or McDonald's in sight.

Her Twitter feed included the following low points:

We've stopped for a fag break, the prophet would be thrilled I'm sure

What exactly am I being punished for? What lesson is this teaching me?

When I can unveil and de-burqa? It's getting hot in here

Plan to book myself into a London day spa to repair myself. Any suggestions?

Is it wrong to leave hajj without experiencing a sense of unity and renewed faith? Does our response have to be uniform? Discuss

Landed in London, feel like kissing the tarmac


It's difficult to decide what was worse: the Hajj tweets themselves or the ones when she arrived back that were consumed with trying to figure out who had been voted off/sacked/left the plethora of reality TV shows that give meaning and structure to the lives of rather too many people in today's Britain.

Butt's attitude, characterised by a stubborn and unyielding desire not to be seen to be partial to her own religion, puzzled even some of her faithful non-Muslim Guardian followers, with peterNW1 asking, "...but why do you never capitalise the word 'Hajj'? Are there other hajjs in the world?"

Indeed.

So how could a thoughtful, probably intelligent, Muslim arrive at the stage where she makes jokes about what she should hold most dear to her heart, and all for the delight of her mainly non-Muslim audience? It would be easy – too easy – to label her a "sell-out" (or "self-hating Muslim", "Uncle Tom", "House Negro" or "coconut") and leave it at that but this issue deserves closer attention because what Riazat Butt is manifesting can be seen in so many of our brothers and sisters.

It can be seen in the "just call me Mo" character at work, who would rather bite off and spit out his own tongue before saying "salaam" to one of his co-religionists. It can be seen in the elegantly coiffured sister sitting awkwardly at the Wetherspoons "office do" sipping her orange juice whilst her colleagues tipsily embrace religious diversity, just as long as it comes with a nominated driver. It can be seen in the sharp-elbowed Muslim parents, who are so desperate for their increasingly confused offspring to "fit in", that they push them to take up musical instruments, Christmas plays, anglicised names, and the whole gamut of the Miley Cyrus/Hannah Montana lifestyle (which most non-Muslim "Mumsnet" mamas are aghast at) so that, by the end of their 12 years of schooling, their children find that the only thing they don't fit into is their religion.

As an affliction that is growing in our community, this is a phenomenon that needs to be dissected and analysed. How does an articulate, self-aware Muslim woman (like Riazat Butt) fall to such depths that she is prepared to provide cheap laughs for her secular audience at the expense of her religion? She would probably rationalise to herself that she is just showing equal irreverence to all religions and that she doesn't have to make an outward show of faith in order to be a good Muslim. This assertion is given some weight when taken together with an article she wrote for the Washington Post in 2007, called "On Not Being Muslim Enough", which was lovingly reprinted for Richard Dawkin's website as an example of someone well on the road to humanism. In it, Butt expresses her feeling that she somehow just doesn't measure up to everyone else's "Muslimness" despite, by her own admission, receiving a mostly warm and non-judgemental reception by the Muslim community after a childhood spent in a largely non-Muslim setting. She also admits that it isn't just a hijab issue. Rather, she describes the feeling of being with Muslims "as rocking up to a party sober when everyone else has been drunk for hours."

And she further describes her isolation from Muslims thus:

"I don't want to talk about foreign policy, radicals or community cohesion all the time. I can't get into Sami Yusuf any more than I can Hamza Yusuf. I am not a Muslim who has blossomed in front of her peers. I don't like being called sister by people who are not my brothers."

On the other hand, when she describes being with non-Muslims, there is a distinct warmth in her tone:

"Being in the company of non-Muslims is easier and more fun. It's is not a euphemism for drinking and partying. They respect my boundaries and our bonds are forged faster and stronger because there is less political and religious baggage to deal with. Islam intrigues them but, with them, my religion is only part of who I am. Clearly, this is a mistake because it makes me NME (not Muslim enough)."

When reading her work it is clear that, at one stage, Riazat Butt had a deeply felt belief in Allah and the religion of Islam and that there is a part of her that mourns its loss. One may speculate that the erosion probably began during a childhood that perhaps wasn't intentionally secular but rather thoughtlessly devoid of Islam. This, coupled with the observation that around the world Muslims seem to be trapped in a cycle of either being the most corrupt or the most abused people, may have made her question Islam whilst simultaneously drawing her towards the forces that shape modern society, secularism principal among them. Any growing devotion to secularism would increase in a media environment that celebrates it, that simultaneously blames all human inadequacies on organised religion, and that singles out Islam as particularly and uniquely problematic.

Privacy of belief – another secular construct whereby spirituality is not supposed to intrude into the public sphere – is again an area where Islam is likely to clash with secularism, especially when Islam is held up as the reason why we Muslims as an ummah are in the state that we are in.

Take this, together with the barrage of biased and misinformed highlighting of certain "uncomfortable" issues in Islam, and the inevitable "push/pull" reaction with each of these issues, and it is easy to see how, each time, a bit of one's faith could be sacrificed for the greater good of just "fitting in". As faith begins to erode in this way, one becomes even more prepared to shave off further aspects of Islam which are deemed unsuitable or unfashionable, all for the sake of conforming to the norm. Ultimately, a point is reached when one's connection with Allah is so weakened that one no longer finds any fulfilment or satisfaction in the religious duties of Islam, the irony being that this is usually seen as a confirmation of one's initial doubts.

A good example of this mindset was demonstrated during a 2007 Doha Debate on the niqab being a barrier to integration, when the supporter the motion, Reem Maghribi, a trustee of BMSD (British Muslims for Secular Democracy), stated very clearly that the reason why we have no choice but to conform to this step-wise erosion of our faith is because, at the end of the day, the western secular movement is far too powerful to even contemplate resisting.

It seems that too many of our brothers and sisters find themselves wearying in the fight to swim against the flow as they traverse the river of life, with its treacherous riptides and undercurrents. It appears they would prefer to be carried along, like froth upon the water, pausing now and again only to justify their capitulation to this seemingly irresistible force.

All this begs the question, "Where will it all end?" Many secularists call on Islam to rid itself of its "medieval" baggage and take its place among other religions, terra-formed by postmodernism. Right-thinking Muslims, however, see reformation for what it truly is: an evisceration aimed to reduce Allah's religion to the babble of fortune-cookie wisdom. We are, ourselves, beginning to realise that Islam is regarded as somewhat different: it will never truly fit into the pantheon of acceptable belief systems, despite intellectual gymnastics to remove and paper over the incompatibilities.

As Muslims, we were warned over 1,400 years ago about changing our religion for the sake of conformity. We were told that whatever changes we make in the religion, those forcing us to change will never accept us until we leave the religion completely. If this is the logical end then is the path worth travelling?

On the authority of Thawbaan , the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said:

"The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their food." Someone asked, "Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?" He replied, "No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts." Someone asked, "O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?" He replied, "Love of the world and dislike of death."
[A sahih hadith recorded by Abu Dawood and Ahmad]

Lying is categorically prohibited in Islam, yet the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) has specifically cursed the person who lies in order to make people laugh. He (s) said: "Woe to him who speaks and lies in order to make people laugh, woe to him."
[Sunan Abi Dawood vol. 3, no. 4972]

The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if one continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, one will be recorded in Allah's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If one continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, one will be recorded in Allah's presence as eminently truthful."
[Sunan Abi Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971]

42 comments:

  1. Jazak-Allah Kher, for taking such effort in analysing this decline of the 'Muslim' who has slipped rapidly down the slope of 'fitting-in'.
    I hope sincerely that Riazat Butt does not simply see this as a personal attack, but rather contemplates on the article with more depth. May Allah (SWT) guide her to the truth and away from the tragedies that have afflicted her.
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  2. "Riazat Butt - ranked as the 26th most powerful Muslim woman in the UK according to the "Power List""

    A joke right?
    How can this individal be called Muslim She can and should be called Moslem - House Moslem but most powerful Muslim NEVER
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  3. I do hope sister, yes sister Riazat joins us in the comments section. The slippery slope of conformity is indeed that, a slippery slope, once you start the slide, its very difficult to claw onto to anything to halt the process.

    I pray that our sister sees her mistakes, and what of mistakes? We all make them, and the best of those who make mistakes are those who realise, repent and restore their Iman.

    "It seems that too many of our brothers and sisters find themselves wearying in the fight to swim against the flow as they traverse the river of life, with its treacherous riptides and undercurrents"

    beautiful, yet devastatingly effective line.
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  4. My favourite, devasting line is the following, ma sha Allah (there is such a "Mo" in my office!):

    "It can be seen in the "just call me Mo" character at work, who would rather bite off and spit out his own tongue before saying "salaam" to one of his co-religionists. It can be seen in the elegantly coiffured sister sitting awkwardly at the Wetherspoons "office do" sipping her orange juice whilst her colleagues tipsily embrace religious diversity, just as long as it comes with a nominated driver."
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  5. While appreciating the very islamic nature of the city of Makkah....I must say the disorganisation of the incompetent Saudi authorities does make you appreciate some of the basic things which we take for granted in the UK like queuing. It is at times chaotic during hte days of Hajj and I do believe more can be done by such a oil rich country...I don't agree with sentiment like kissing the tarmac of UK but after such an exhausting experience I can understand how some people may be relieved to return home.
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  6. Good grief, people - given the sanctimonious comments so far, I can well understand why she says that non-muslims are easier to deal with: WE respect her boundaries and treat her as a real person, with multiple facets of their life, not just another assumed 'sister'. She obviously has affection for both her heritage and the current world - a bit more understanding of that from you guys would be nice, and a bit less patronising and arrogant supposition that she is 'one of us'.
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  7. @Anonymous 12:32

    Er, if you go to hajj reflecting on your dire need of Allah's forgiveness, seeking his pleasure and a life-changing experience, you may notice others' bad behaviour but it won't be your primary concern. If you go to hajj without sincerely recognising or wanting any of these, then you will rejoice in the smoothness of UK tarmac. There is enough evidence available to criticise the Saudis without the need to go to hajj. If you are going to go, seek out the good and the profound; ignore the bad and the mundane.
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  8. I should like to point out that the idea that Islam should be tolerated in a nominally Christian country is a secularist one. The word does not mean the same as 'atheist'.
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  9. Get over yourself! Riazat was just having fun, leave her alone. I can't stand muslims like yourself, people like you put me off Islam.
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  10. Great article Karima. I don't know how you have the sabr to keep reading all the nonsense from these guys. I gave up long ago. Perhaps this is part of your tarbiyah to be forced to endure the painful ramblings of the spiritually retarded. Rather you than me!
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  11. This is the most peculiar article - you have set yourself up as a 'good Muslim' and criticised another Muslim for expressing her true and honest feelings. Surely, when someone says that a community makes her feel that she is not good enough, it is the community that has the responsibility to make an effort to welcome her, and not for the community to criticise.

    On top of that, you come across as deeply patronising and sanctimonious. Hajj has some very deep and spiritual moments, but it also has real humanity and even humour at the irony. I think this latter point is what Riazat's tweets convey. For example, the 'fag break' is quite common in hajj groups. Yet her tweet points out that there is something quite surreal about watching a group of hajjis all in white standing around puffing on their ciggies. What WOULD the Prophet have made of this?

    Karima, did you know that it's perfectly ok for believers to have a sense of humour? Even the Prophet made jokes!

    Perhaps you should have expended all the effort of writing such a huge article criticisng someone who has been honest about their feelings, actually reaching out to them instead of dissing them. Says more about you than Riazat I think.
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  12. @Anonymous 15:30

    She may have been having fun, but it should be within the boundaries set by Allah, Most High. I cant stand non-Muslims like yourself, you cannot accept justified criticism of an individual who by default represents Muslims in a media outlet. You are a product of her articles and phrases.

    By her behaviour, she legitimises actions which people like you would deem acceptable, however if anyone does not represent her view of anything on Islam, they become "fringe" or "salafist" or any other "ist". Hence it is important to highlight that her behaviour is in fact NOT the status quo, but rather strange given the momentous and spiritually revitalising occasion.
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  13. Next time the Guardian should send her to cover, secular pilgrimage like a Rock concert, tell us how she feel there
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  14. Wow, I am shocked to learn that someone with such journalistic power to educate others used her power in such a demeaning way. Hajj isn't about vain things like makeovers, spa treatments, and the like. It's about connecting with God, with your soul, and with your faith. The beauty of hajj isn't that it's completely comfortable or completely easy, but rather that those experiences, and the teachings from them, bring a follower so much closer to God.

    Perhaps tweeting from hajj was too distracting for her to concentrate on the real meaning of the journey.
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  15. I've heard of a story of man walking and travelling by land to get to Mecca from Africa with only a few possessions - to complete his spiritual obligation, follow in the footsteps of Ibrahim (AS), to cry in Arafat and ask for forgiveness. Riazat should reflect on her words and consider the implications of what she is saying and how she is saying it.

    Joking is fine, but for example joking about or mocking the sunnah is not. Surely if she is that witty then she'll find other material.... there's plenty of it about.
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  16. ''This is the most peculiar article - you have set yourself up as a 'good Muslim' and criticised another Muslim for expressing her true and honest feelings. Surely, when someone says that a community makes her feel that she is not good enough, it is the community that has the responsibility to make an effort to welcome her, and not for the community to criticise.''

    What tittle tattle and double standards, an attempt to de-legitimise any criticism of Riazat's opinionated and frankly shallow approach to Hajj!
    Ever thought about applying 'free-speech' to your vocabulary. If Riazat is so delicate then why is she writing for a national newspaper giving her pearls of wisdom in regards to an event that is precious to billions of people.
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  17. Ok, while reading your article I was thinking "wow Riazat Butt must have been very offensive"... so I thought of checking the tweets out. What the hell? I dont see how she was mocking or making jokes for her secular readers? its real. Those of us who have been to hajj have experienced it. Her connection with God is between her and God. when I real articles such as this I wonder whether there are Muslims who think they own Islam and therefore have the right to sack anyone from their organisation as they wish.
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  18. The question we need to ask is, if Riazat was invited to the most auspicious event in the Christian calendar (e.g. Coronation or Royal Wedding or Lambert Palace dinner etc) would she be tweeting about mundane trivialities like "fag break" as she has done with the Hajj or would she be telling us about the real substance of the occasion? I think the latter!

    The fact that she felt the need to highlight trivialities reveals her own insecurities such as if I don't appear irreverent in the Hajj then my non-Muslim colleagues might think I am "Islamic" which is a pejorative term in her vocabulary as seen in her tweets about this article.
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  19. Sister Karima used the words, brothers and sisters, for people like Riazat in the article which shows that Karima is not saying all this for the sake of criticising but to point out some of Riazat's misunderstandings about huj.

    As Prophet (SAW) said muslim ummah is like one body where one part of it is hurt then the whole body will feel the pain. So therefore, I will suggest that if somebody criticises you then just analyse why are they doing it and what is in it for me?

    So 'SISTER' Riazat and others please dont take offense by this article but to analyse and correct some of the wrongs you may be doing not to yourself but the beautiful religion of Islam.
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  20. Great article - may Allah give us all the ability to stay true to our religion.
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  21. OMG Riazak did you really think that you were going to get away with your disgusting behaviour. The only reason why you probably get on with non Muslims is because you have no Muslim friends. Surely if you had some Muslim friends, they would have warned you against this. But hey, I guess your going through some major identity crisis and want to do everything possible to tantalise your secular mates. Isn’t it then interesting how you are so deluded whereby you are expecting the Muslim community to support you in your meaningless writing. Hope you sort yourself out, religious affairs correspondent. Oh by the way…I’m only sharing my feelings and I’m entitled to express my feelings freely aren’t I?. Yeah right!.
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  22. Point is RB didn't go to Hajj - she was sent on an assignment for the Guardian - they would have have sent anyone - but were stuck cos you had to at least describe yourself as Muslim.

    But the more interesting point is how some of us pander to all these "muslim elites" - take Emel...and Safraz Mansoor.
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  23. not sure what her problem is. It's not Islam's fault she has been pigeonholed as the Muslim correspondent by the Guardian.
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  24. Haha! You tools are really stupid. For once this woman spoke her mind, and you assholes are offended. What is so beautiful about a religion that promises pussy in heaven?
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  25. What a twirp this Butt is, talentless Muslim authors have to resort to these things because otherwise their writing is dull.
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  26. 'Call me mo' is what was experienced by the Jewish community, where to be accepted they changed their names, their culture and tried to fit in. sadly that was enver enough, and we saw the holocaust. I too was what you call 'call me mo' person, when i didnt know anythign about my faith or dientity, mainstream schoosl dont teahc you about the hisotry fo other countries or cultures, and your parents dont, u leae school feelign like u have no confidence in who you are. Its only when i began to learn about my faith, and the intellectual depth, and my Indian/Benglai history and how much Bangladesh, india contributed to the UK, and finding out about muslim contributuon to the world, founders of modern civilisation. I regained my connfidence and became me. I topped being 'call me jo'. People dont realise that it is this fact , sens eof identity vacum that sends many 'secular' muslism to the hands of extremists, as they try desperate to find confidence int heri identity, i did it through mainstream islam.

    I see miss Butt trying to find acceptance in a world that doesnt accept a part of her, but also shes trying to find acceptance amongst muslims, amongst those whom dotn undersntad a part of her. I understnad this as this is my life sometimes too. But what i have done is found pride in my life, my faith, my community, both muslim and non muslim.
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  27. Call me mo is what was experienced by the Jewish community, where to be accepted they changed their names, their culture and tried to fit in. sadly that was enver enough, and we saw the holocaust. I too was what you call 'call me mo' person, when i didnt know anythign about my faith or dientity, mainstream schoosl dont teahc you about the hisotry fo other countries or cultures, and your parents dont, u leae school feelign like u have no confidence in who you are. Its only when i began to learn about my faith, and the intellectual depth, and my Indian/Benglai history and how much Bangladesh, india contributed to the UK, and finding out about muslim contributuon to the world, founders of modern civilisation. I regained my connfidence and became me. I topped being 'call me jo'. People dont realise that it is this fact , sens eof identity vacum that sends many 'secular' muslism to the hands of extremists, as they try desperate to find confidence int heri identity, i did it through mainstream islam.

    I see miss Butt trying to find acceptance in a world that doesnt accept a part of her, but also shes trying to find acceptance amongst muslims, amongst those whom dotn undersntad a part of her. I understnad this as this is my life sometimes too. But what i have done is found pride in my life, my faith, my community, both muslim and non muslim.
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  28. You are both as bad as each other. Butt for her dry comments and you for bothering to analyse those dry comments so critically.
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  29. Interesting:

    "Being in the company of non-Muslims is easier and more fun. It's is not a euphemism for drinking and partying. They respect my boundaries and our bonds are forged faster and stronger because there is less political and religious baggage to deal with. Islam intrigues them but, with them, my religion is only part of who I am. Clearly, this is a mistake because it makes me NME (not Muslim enough)."

    Reading your piece Karima, I can perfectly understand why RB feels this way, it would, reading what you've said, seem that RB is right.

    To be honest, regardless of what religion it was, if i felt myself desiring faithfulness to that religion, was honest to the degree RB was in her contemplation about her self condition, and then read this, I would likely feel as RB seems to about being NME.

    I honestly wish you and RB, the very best in life, because she is obviously having difficulties dealing with the expectations of her fellows and her fellows appear to be having difficulties with her.

    Bless you both, i think you'll need it.
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  30. Sorry, but secularism is just the inevitable concomitant of modernity, and frankly if you don't want modernity, I don't know what planet you're on. How would modern medicine, which has saved countless lives and human suffering, have developed without modernity? How is it that such an historically unprecedented degree of religious freedom is afforded to minorities in the West? Yep, it's modernity, and secularism.

    Being secular doesn't mean renouncing your religion, it simply means accepting that you're part of a society and a world in which many hold different views from oneself, and that they have the perfect right to do so.

    And by the way, I say this not as an atheist, but as a Christian. It is absolutely crucial that men and women of faith engage with this modern, secular world. It is not something we need to oppose, it is not a threat to our faith. It is something which helps to bring the will of God onto this earth, by way of the inestimable improvements it has made to the lives of so many over the last 200 or so years.
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  31. Lets face it when Miss Butt becomes Mrs smith and washes herself away out Islam completely, after she has drunk herself to oblivion, partied like a crazy woman, had her 3 kids for 3 different dads and smoked all the drugs her lungs could take she still will never be happy. The issue is not Islam, for Islam has enlightened the lives of Billions of people from the beginning of Time of the World. The issue is of a woman who cannot see and is blind, deaf and dumb her heart sealed and her nafs in control. We do not need lectures from a woman who even on Hajj ridicules Islam. Many non-muslims revert just by what they see of the Hajj. So Miss Butt please feel free to walk nay run to your lord shaitan, take your sickness and diseased heart with you. Sure we have problems in the UMMAH but really Democracy and Capitalism? Let me see democracy where the Govt is paid by Pressure Groups like the Zionists, Banks & Defence Companies to create wars and oppression? Like Banks who take our money and Loan 10x the amount against it and then wonder when it all collapses, no worse they then take our money again via our Corrupt Govts and BAIL THEM OUT! So personally Islam doesn't need any advice from the very people who Opress the entire world with their disease ridden work! Ouzobillah May Allah protect Islam, Guide all the Ummah to the Sirat al Mustaquim and give us Victory amen!
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  32. To the last poster: why is the only alternative to your version of 'Islam' to drink oneself into oblivion and to sleep around? Is it not possible to be a moderate Muslim, to have non-Muslim friends, perhaps even to drink in moderation, and yet still be a good person. At least someone like this would not be likely to indulge in things like cutting off thieves' hands...
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  33. "by the end of their 12 years of schooling, their children find that the only thing they don't fit into is their religion."

    They've learned to think for themselves....
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  34. "They've learned to think for themselves.... "

    Wrong, they've been indoctrinated by society. If you think an atheist or anyone else (you included) thinks "for themselves" without being completely influenced by everything and everyone around them then you are the biggest fool of all.
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  35. "Wrong, they've been indoctrinated by society. If you think an atheist or anyone else (you included) thinks "for themselves" without being completely influenced by everything and everyone around them then you are the biggest fool of all."

    Just because one is influenced by those around them and their social conditioning in their upbringing this does not stop them from thinking for themselves. The practice of criticising and questioning whatever it is that we hold dear as belief, and also what we are introduced to and told by others, can be defined as thinking for oneself, regardless of social conditioning and influences.

    For examplewe can concieve of two people from very very different socially conditioned environments with very different influences both having this quality, regardless of influence, because it is a quality quite seperate from influence.

    To think for oneself is obviously the result of something. It doesn't just happen of it's own accord, however regardless of the causes of it, this doesn't detract from it's validity in and of itself.

    Everyone is the product of their upbringing, we are the culmination of our experience. That said, certain values are objectively valuable and can even go so far as to dislodge beliefs which are firmly held purely from social conditioning. one such thing is being able to think for oneself, by which we mean, question everything and critically consider all claims presented to you, and all claims you present,and all values and beliefs you hold.
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  36. "Thinker" seems to think s/he is the only thinker in the World. All the rest of us are just puppets.
    /Peter Adler
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  37. @Peter Adler: "Thinker" includes himself in this as well. How about you read the actual comment rather than make some random attack? You hardly come across as a thinker yourself.
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  38. Muslims take themselves too seriously and they have no sense of humour. Sanctimonious followers of Islam have a blind faith; rituals are more important than understanding the real purpose of the religion. They would be up in arms to castigate or even kill anyone who respectfully disagrees with their interpretation of Islam. If they believe in God and the Day of Judgement, they should leave the punishment to Almighty. They should endeavour to be good humanbeings themselves; the greatness of their religion will manifest itself.
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  39. Although a deeply reverential attitude towards one's faith is its anchor and bedrock, a lot of what passes off in the name of Islam is really nothing more than cultural leanings that are treated with the same reverence as matters of faith. Poking fun at the latter is not the same as disrespecting Islam. One of the people you quote (Abu Eesa Niamatullah) is very good at this as well. Although I do think that Riazat crossed the line with some her tweets.

    Reverence, like spirituality, is a matter between yourself and your God. You don't need to wear it on your sleeve. And I disagree with the author on the point of spirituality intruding the public space. Your honesty, sense of justice and good character is what should manifest itself in the public domain. Spirituality has always been (unless you're a fake sufi!) about one's relationship with God.
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  40. Lets face it - its all made up bollox anyway
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  41. I "snigger at the stupidity of the devout". Daily.
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  42. @Thinker
    "They've learned to think for themselves.... "

    Wrong, they've been indoctrinated by society. If you think an atheist or anyone else (you included) thinks "for themselves" without being completely influenced by everything and everyone around them then you are the biggest fool of all.
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    @Peter Adler: "Thinker" includes himself in this as well. How about you read the actual comment rather than make some random attack? You hardly come across as a thinker yourself.

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    I'm guessing you CAN'T see how your two comments above makes your chosen moniker comically ironic? Not that completely ignoring Lilith didn't already point in that direction. :D
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